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Ferrier in SMP
Pieter Pannevis wrote (April 30, 2001):
[snip] Do you know of a MP by Kathleen Ferrier
Philip Peters wrote (May 1, 2001):
(To Pieter Pannevis) Sure, with Karajan and it´s baaaad because of Karajan but mandatory for Ferrier-adepts (like myself).
Teri Noel Towe (May 1, 2001):
(To Pieter Pannevis) Yes. She is the alto in one of the great SMPs.
It is a live performance from the International Bach Festival in Vienna, 1950, conducted by Herbert von Karajan, and it features a stellar cast.
Irmgard Seefried, soprano
Kathleen Ferrier, contralto
Walther Ludwig, tenor (far and away the greatest Evangelist on disc, although he was in better voice for the abridged Kittel version on 78’s from the 1930’s)
Otto Edelmann, bass
Paul Schoeffler, bass - Jesus
This performance has appeared on "pirate" CD’s more than once. I have it on both Foyer and Verona.
There is also a B Minor Mass (BWV 232) with Karajan from the same Bach festival. Schwarzkopf is the soprano in that performance, and Ferrier again the alto soloist.
I don't care what the Performance Practice Puritans say. These are "desert island" performances!
Philip Peters wrote (May 1, 2001):
(To Teri Noel Towe) Not for me though. I agree with the stellar cast and on paper it looks so good that even Karajan shouldn´t have been able to spoil it but he suceeds with flying colours IMO. And I have nothing against modern (or is it old-fashioned...difficult to say in the HIP-discussion ;)) performances. I feel Karajan and Bach were just a bad combo, it drags on and on (very much unlike Richter I, Wöldike, Gonnenwein, Mengelberg a.o.) and makes me understand the old musician´s joke: "I had a nightmare that I was playing the SMP. Then I woke up and it was true."
Of course, I wouldn´t want to be without the Karajan recordings but strictly because of the soloists (there is another B Minor Mass (BWV 232) by him BTW).
Riccardo Nughes wrote (May 1, 2001):
(To Teri Noel Towe) Please, can you specify which orchestra H.Von Karajan was conducting? Thanks,
Philip Peters wrote (May 1, 2001):
(To Riccardo Nughes) Wiener Symphoniker.
Pieter Pannevis wrote (May 1, 2001):
Is this program still on on BBC: "Desert Island Disc" ?
Jane Newble wrote (May 2, 2001):
< Philip Peters wrote: Sure, with Karajan and it´s baaaad because of Karajan but mandatory for Ferrier-adepts (like myself). >
<< Pieter Pannevis wrote: I'll send you the Mengelberg.do you know of a MP by Kathleen Ferrier >>
After hearing Karajan murder another baroque composer, I can't imagine I would ever want to listen to him doing Bach, not even out of curiosity, and not even with Ferrier. I have to draw the line somewhere...:o)
However, I have another SMP with Ferrier, but it is in English. I think it has been put on CD, but I don't know for sure. It is the Bach Choir, with Reginald Jacques and the Jacques Orchestra. Soloists are Elsie Suddaby, Kathleen Ferrier, Eric Greene and William Parsons. Henry Cummings is Pontius Pilate and Jesus. Although I am not a lover of doing things in a non-native language, it is actually quite moving.
Teri Noel Towe wrote (May 3, 2001):
(To Jane Newble) Do open your mind, heart, soul, and ears, Jane, and listen to the 1950 Karajan SMP. And you will not have to put up with Eric Greene squawling like a banshee at a wake.
Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (May 4, 2001):
(To Jane Newble & Teri Noel Towe)
Jane and Face,
One of my favorite subjects. I avoid vK like the plague, but for Ferrier (in spite of the poor sonics) I do listen to this which I have on CDs for quite some time. I also listen to the Messe in H moll with vK and Ferrier. The English language version I too have and it is one of the very few LP sets I saved when I disposed of all my LP’s recently.
It is not only what Teri says about whomever. it is that the whole performance is so bloody unidiomatic. But I throw away no such treasure with Ferrier.
The arias from the SMP and Messe are on a CD with the Ferrier Urlicht from Mahler 2 (I have it on Verona; it is available on many lables) and If you don't want the complete vK SMP and the Messe, get the arias CD (The Urlicht is from the performance with Klemperer and I have saved that LP set of the whole Holland M2 also).
Cheers to you, Yoel (who prefers HIP, but also will not give up certain singers and performers).
John Thomas wrote (May 4, 2001):
(To Yoël L. Arbeitman) Coincidentally, this 1950 SMP from Karajan/Ferrier on Verona arrived today in a shipment from Berkshire, where it's still available for less than $10. Though you couldn't tell it from the packaging, the other singers are Seefried, Edelmann & Berry, a fine lineup indeed. I wanted to mention that, in addition to the B minor Mass vK employs Ferrier in his Missa Solemnis (1960?), with the same singers except that Wunderlich replaces Edelmann. I just recently heard this on a set borrowed from the library and was quite surprised at how much I liked it. Yes, it's too slow, but the pace lets the singers breathe and they are magnificent. I'm actually going to break down and buy this set, although my heart still belongs to Klemp's 1965 recording.
Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (May 4, 2001):
(To John Thomas) John, 1960 is way past the time of Ferrier's death at age 41. I don't have the exact date, but she didn't live much past the 1950 date. I have never heard of the Missa Solemnis performance. If it exists, it has to be no latter than 1950. This a good Ferrier article in April Grammaphone.
Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (May 4, 2001):
Actually she died in 1953 at age 41 after a ten year career. Probably her last recording is the Mahler Das Lied von der Erde with the tenor Julius Patzak under Bruno Walter in May, 1952. This has just been remastered well on Decca Legends. She also sings there three Rückert Lieder (or Rueckert Lieder for those who cannot read the umlaut).
John Thomas wrote (May 4, 2001):
(To Yoël L. Arbeitman) You're right - it was Ludwig :-( Pardon mr while I crawl back into my gole.
John Thomas wrote (May 4, 2001):
(To Yoël L. Arbeitman) Can't even get my "hole" right tonight. The Missa Solemnis
recording is from 1966, and Ludwig is great; but she's no Ferrier.
Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (May 4, 2001):
(To John Thomas) Now, John, there aren't enough holes in the ground for all of us mortals who err in e posts to crawl into. Save at least a few for me.Ludwig is indeed a fascinating singer. I do not personally greatly get moved by her. She is also a very intelligent person. A long interview I heard with her recently shows her as one of maybe the few major singers who thinks. No offense intended to anyone living or dead, but many of these singer interviews are pablum. I had a lady friend who passed away at a very young age who loved Ludwig above all. Her main request in bed during illness was for tapes of Ludwig singing Mahler. Hence Ludwig singing Mahler always makes me both sad and happy simultaneously. Ferrier was AFAIK a very simple person. The recent Grammaphone article mentions a lost (yet to be discovered) Ferrier performance (a 2nd Benjamin Britten opera). I had hoped that you had come across another, but alas.
Karajan MP (live 1950)
Riccardo Nughes wrote (November 11, 2001):
http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=4053
Oh!
Sw Anandgyan wrote (March 3, 2005):
Once more I ventured into one of my favourite second-hand record stores and I came across something that I once did fancy but the regular price had been a deterrent and lo and behold there it was available at more than half the price cut!
I just have put on the second CD of the live SMP from Karajan recorded in '50 on the Adante label and this is quite something; it's the solemnity that gets to me. It is neither pompous nor frail, the spiritual flavor is easily perceived by me and it incites me to rediscover the Otto Klemperer recording, then Gardiner, then Rilling II, then Harnoncourt III, then Daus, then Brüggen ...
Know what I mean?
But this Karajan I is so centered, so locked-on target, that I'm sucked in the work.
http://tinyurl.com/6ddqp
Karajan's First SM
Sw Anandgyan wrote (March 3, 2005):
Yesterday, not only was I able to return home with the latest from Herreweghe but a foray in one of my favourite second-hand record stores allowed me to buy the live SMP from Karajan on the Andante label.
I did listen to both BWV 12 on Harmonia Mundi and felt that PH's sound was more rounded than the KJ's thin clarity but I was more inclined to put the three CDs
from the SMP set and go for a trip back in time.
Knowing this I was more lenient about the sound quality, yes there is coughing a couple of times, but I was stopped in my tracks for the quality of the interpretation; such solemnity.
Is it the young Karajan or what? I only have his first studio recording of the MBM to dare say this but I was more than impressed with the overall feeling of understanding.
I was raised on HIP and every once in a while, I'll stretch my musical horizon to either go modern instruments or just historical. In the right mood, the SMP from Mengelbereg, the MBM from Enescu can turn into a feast.
Are there many of us who can delight with this Karajan recording from 1950?
A French critic from Classica-Répertoire gave this 'reissue' a pretty good review and an American one trashed it on Classic Today, though not on a label with the same remastering job.
Finally I resonate a lot to this masterwork.
Dr Juan Vaillant wrote (March 4, 2005):
I agree with you. Both the SMP and MBM by Karajan are jewels.
Shameless self-promotion - Karajan second SMP
Tom Dent wrote (April 11, 2005):
Just to say that I am currently selling an LP copy of Karajan's SECOND St Matthew Passion recording (1972) with the Berlin Phil., Wiener Singverein, Janowitz, C.Ludwig, Schreier, Laubenthal, Fischer-Dieskau, Berry and Diakov. DG 4LPs, near mint condition, full booklet. It is on eBay (where else?). I don't like this recording, except for the soprano and alto arias, and be warned that the sound quality of DG in the 1970s is debatable. If you want to hear Karajan play the organ, apparently he does in the aria 'Geduld'. Anyway I reckon I have provided sufficient honesty in advertising.
Robert Sherman wrote (April 12, 2005):
[To Tom Dent] Tom, you'll never make it as a used car salesman.
Tom Dent wrote (April 12, 2005):
[To Robert Sherman] Never mind, it sold. It had been sitting around the house for decades and no-one could remember who bought it - evidently only been played once or twice. I compared it to my highlights LP of Richter I and it lost on virtually every count except Christa Ludwig. Janowitz is not bad but pales next to the amazing Irmgard Seefried who manages to combine seductive vocal quality with devotional phrasing.
The Richter is surprisingly good even on LP, with lots of orchestral detail and excellent balance / choir placing to rival Harnoncourt/Gillesberger. How can DG sound engineering have declined so much between 1959 and 1972?
Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (April 12, 2005):
Tom Dent wrote: < The Richter is surprisingly good even on LP, with lots of orchestral detail and excellent balance / choir placing to rival Harnoncourt/Gillesberger. How can DG sound engineering have declined so much between 1959 and 1972? >
I am a tad confused, Tom.
Harnoncourt/Gillesberger or vice versa is Johannes-Passion and is Telefunken on LPs and Teldec on CDs. Am I missing something? Are we all speaking of one passion and is Das alte Werk series both Telefunken and DG?
Tom Dent wrote (April 12, 2005):
[To Yoël L. Arbeitman] Ah, you are correct. I meant Harnoncourt I (which dates from 1970) which has Kings College Cambridge and Regensburg Dom as choir-provider ... the odd one out. Nikolaus' SJP, BmM and CO are with the Viennese and Gillesberger.
I am saying first, that the DG sound of 1959 is much better than the opaque and woolly Karajan sound of 1972 (the surprising decline in DG engineering), second, the DG sound of 1959 is competitive with the Telefunken sound of 1970.
But let us not talk any more of Karajan 1972!
Bradley Lehman wrote (April 12, 2005):
Karajan as organist?
< If you want to hear Karajan play the organ, apparently he does in the aria 'Geduld'. >
Any chance the organist there was Wolfgang v Karajan, brother of Herbert? He and two other organists made a fine recording of the "Art of Fugue" on three (yes, three) organs. All I know about it, unfortunately, is a cassette tape dub that somebody made for me from LPs about 13 years ago; haven't seen the notes on it.
David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (April 12, 2005):
[To Bradley Lehman] No, it was Herbert van Karajan. I had the CD version of the recording in question.
Emiko Hall (Cleofide) wrote (April 13, 2005):
[To David Glenn Lebut Jr.] Is this the CD you are looking for?
http://www.svalander.se/charlin/rec12engp.htm
J.S. Bach
L'art de la fugue BWV 1080 Ensemble Wolfgang von Karajan (Hedy von Karajan, Hans Andreae, Wolfgang von Karajan) sur deux positifs et un contrepositif Walker dans la grande salle du Morzarteum de Salzbourg. ams44_45.jpg - 7571 Bytes AMS 44/45 (2cd)
I see the purchase info on the same page.
William Rowland (Ludwig) wrote (April 13, 2005):
[To David Glenn Lebut Jr.] Are we talking about the famous conductor???
David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (April 13, 2005):
[To Emiko Hall] No, it is the 2nd recording of the Matthäuspassion (on the Deutsche Gramaphon label) which featuresthe Wiener Singverein and a Berlin singing ensemble and the Berliner Philharmoniker under the general conductorship of Herbert van Karajan. In the aria "Geduld", he (van Karajan) plays the Organ.
David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (April 13, 2005):
William Rowland wrote: < Are we talking about the famous conductor??? >
Yes.
Herbert von Karajan : Short Biography | Wiener Singverein | Berliner Philharmoniker | Recordings | General Discusions | BWV 232 - Karajan | BWV 244 – Karajan
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